Talk:Denali

Mt. Mckinley

Guys the name is Mt. McKinley... "federally designated as", yes because that's what the name is. Refusing to change it as an act of "resistance" is extremely petty and is an example of WP: JUST.

Many would argue that Trump changing it was extremely petty. No maps already printed are going to change.HiLo48 (talk) 05:27, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

True... the president is no stranger to going even lower than his opposition. However no maps are going to change that were printed before 2015 either.... they all say McKinley. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:26, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

I don't think either point is relevant. Regardless of Trump's "pettiness", he has the power of executive order to rename federal land. Wikipedia editors do not. And "no maps printed already printed are going to change". Well of course they won't. What will the maps being printed NOW say? Google maps already made the change. And also, what did the ones before 2015 say? JonathanMRosenberg (talk) 07:45, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree. It's not like the Gulf of Mexico which is recognized internationally since before America was founded as the Gulf of Mexico.

And we renamed it on wikipedia to Denali when it was federally changed to Denali, not when it was state recognized.

If another President after Trump renames it back to Denali, then we should change it back to Denali, but not before then. Historyguy1138 (talk) 13:16, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

"...he has the power of executive order to rename federal land." Sure, no one is disputing that. That doesn't mean Wikipedia needs to follow suit, though. We don't follow the whims of presidents, national governments, or any other "official" powers; instead, we follow our own guidelines and naming conventions. 296cherry (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

You mean we "often" follow our own guidelines and naming conventions. We didn't in 2015 when it was renamed to Denali. Other items came into play this go around. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:55, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Assuming policy was not followed in 2015 (debatable), why should we make the same mistake again? 296cherry (talk) 05:05, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

I didn't say in my reply that we should make the same mistake, I just wanted to make sure that your statement of "we follow our own guidelines and naming conventions" was countered with the truth. We quite often do not follow common-name. A lot depends on the politics involved on what we actually do. The Clingmans Dome article changed to Kuwohi instantly. As did many other places. Utqiagvik is probably still more commonly known as Barrow, Alaska. We did wait to change Burma to Myanmar until it was more common (but still called Burma by US and other governments). But we changed Prince of Wales Museum to Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya way too early and guess what... it's common name is Shahuji Chhatrapati Museum. Since we have no real guideline that is followed this will continue to happen because personal bias creeps in... and we are all likely guilty at some point. So it's not a mistake in practice. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:41, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines are exactly that: guidelines. They are not laws that must be dutifully followed, nor are they perfectly transferable to every situation; if they were, why would RFCs even exist? Why would there be any debate over article content if the guidelines were absolutely strict and without interpretation? WP:IAR exists for this exact reason. 296cherry (talk) 00:35, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

So if you're just ignoring all rules, what's the justification for not using the actual name of the mountain (Mt. McKinley)? Because that seems to fit under Wikipedia:JUST JonathanMRosenberg (talk) 03:28, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I didn’t say I was ignoring all the rules, I was using WP:IAR as proof that Wikipedia guidelines are flexible at times. And please read any of the numerous discussions held in the last few weeks to see the arguments for and against a name change. 296cherry (talk) 04:42, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Wiki propaganda encyclopedia has been hijack by wacky progressives. FACT the name is Mt. McKinley not Denali, and no amount of political activism by wiki will change that fact. PK070205 (talk) 05:09, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Denali is still used by many people, and is the official name in the Alaskan government. Both Denali and Mount McKinley are used and are official at different levels of government. GN22 (talk) 05:35, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

The authority on the matter is the Secretary of the Interior, who has said it is Mount McKinley. It's blatant POV pushing to insist on a deadname for this article instead of deferring to who has the authority to rename it.

Maybe I should go spam the Mumbai article to rename it back to Bombay, I'm sure that will go over well. 2601:201:8C01:E2F0:4D1:B71D:45D2:C87B (talk) 03:44, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

Mumbai is also the most common name for the city. Wikipedia article titles are based on the most common name, and, apparently, we can’t seem to figure out which one is most commonly used. See Talk:Denali/Archive 7#Requested move 24 January 2025 and WP:CNAME. GN22 (talk) 05:24, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

So - Wikipedia decides what the truth is? 198.251.52.192 (talk) 02:36, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

It's Mount McKinley. This is the fact of the matter. It's been renamed, so the article has to change. There isn't more to it than that. Personofcanada (talk) 02:45, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Common sense is for renaming the page into Mount McKinley. Also, for the people claiming Trump was the petty one, he simply restored the original name... While the name Denali was imposed in 2015 Mattia332 (talk) 06:28, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

The mountain’s original name is Denali. The article itself states that the native peoples who inhabit the area around the mountain have for centuries referred to the peak as Denali. The Mount McKinley name only came in 1896. GN22 (talk) 18:23, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

By that logic shouldn't we also use the native people's spelling of the name "Deenaalee", in fact shouldn't we use their alphabet as well? Or maybe since this is the English Wikipedia, we should just go with what the American government names it to be. JonathanMRosenberg (talk) 21:20, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps you will then lend your voice to renaming the WP page on Taxila to Takshashila which was the original Indian name first murdered by the Greeks, then by the British. 216.228.112.22 (talk) 00:17, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

The original name is irrelevant. Hundreds of other mountains and geographic features have indigenous names that we don’t use as the article title, because the encyclopedia article title should use the name used by most reliable sources.

All major mapping (USGS, Google, Apple) have updated to the common name since 1900 that had been changed from 2015-2025. This change is reflected from all major news sources; only those with conflicts of interest with the Trump administration (i.e. Al Jazeera) do not recognize the change as retaliation for American aid to Israel. Even the AP, who has been barred from the White House over the Gulf of America naming dispute, uses the common name of Mt. McKinley.

While there may have been a logical reason, if flimsy and counter to common application [Kuowhi; not the common name of Clingman’s Dome, was changed instantly], for the initial reluctance to move, there remains no good faith justification for the current article title that is consistent with the policies of the site. 2601:840:8080:6850:B8CD:E731:A9F8:C9EA (talk) 01:57, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

We need Denali being used as the name of the mountain in a majority of secondary sources (i.e. not government sources, but news articles and other websites) not related to Trump’s order to change the mountain’s federal designation back to Mount McKinley in order to have it as the title. GN22 (talk) 03:00, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

really?? says who? Never heard of this litmus test of broad-scoping non-official sources to change the name of a federally-designated place. This sourcing also wasn't requested/demanded when it changed in 2015 to Denali. So this is disingenuous. 2603:6011:2300:CC:2873:6718:B3D0:254D (talk) 13:50, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Names of places on the English language Wikipedia are based on the WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources, not on the (supposed) original name, the native name, the name on other languages (e.g. Koyukon), etc. Jbt89 (talk) 15:14, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

"Only" came in 1896, eh? I'm pretty sure that if anything else from 1896 was mentioned, that it would be "antiquated," "out of date," "primitive" etc. But, whenever it suits YOUR side, of course, 1896 was yesterday. So glad that the Esquimaux have an ardent online advocate in you. 50.32.154.61 (talk) 18:07, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

The Koyukon Athabaskan Native Americans first began using "Denali" more than 10,000 years ago. 1896 was 129 years ago. GN22 (talk) 19:10, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Where do you get that???? We don't even know what they were using 500 years ago let alone 10,000 years ago. The tribes around the area use multitudes of names today and likely used multitudes of different names every millennia, if they even had a name for it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:40, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

What I’m trying to say is that "Denali" is at least hundreds of years older than "Mount McKinley". GN22 (talk) 20:46, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

That is true. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:12, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Not quite. The correct spelling (by one Indian tribe among many) would be Deenaalee or Diinaalii as written in section "naming". Other tribes use even more different spelling or even names. Glasfaser Wien (talk) 08:22, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

No it's true it's at least a couple hundred years old. What is also true is there are like ten different names for the mountain (with different meanings) that are at least a couple hundred years old. Sort of like playing Bingo and Denali happened to fall out of the basket. They aren't better or worse that McKinley, just older. That's about all we can say. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:16, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

How did you survive before Obama changed the name back to Denali? Were you able to live a meaningful life? 50.32.154.61 (talk) 18:04, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Google Maps

Google Maps and Google is now using Mount McKinley in place of Denali. Along with Apple and the Associated Press, I think that changing the article back to Mount McKinley is starting to make more and more sense. KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 21:30, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica also uses Mount McKinley. KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 21:31, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Per WP:THREEOUTCOMES the recommended moratorium between move requests is three months. There is no rush to change the name and I would like to see stories about the mountain, not about the name change, in press and in other reliable sources before opening another name change. This might be after the tourist season begins. Calwatch (talk) 22:22, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Calwatch on all points.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 22:37, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, Google is clearly pandering to Trump's wishes. Google does not define the common name. HiLo48 (talk) 22:43, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

What does then? When every major mapping service, federal department, news service, etc. uses the name, how is it not the common name? It arguably has been the common name even past 2015. 2601:840:8080:6850:90A5:8516:414F:DDFF (talk) 23:26, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

I think if AP, Apple Maps, Google Maps, and Encyclopedia Britannica, all well-regarded sources, are using Mount McKinley, then Wikipedia should as well. This isn't about "pandering to Trump's wishes", it's about using the name that is most commonly reflected in reliable sources. KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 23:31, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Sure, but not just American sources. HiLo48 (talk) 00:06, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

So just to be clear, we’re all in consensus the name of the mountain is Mt. McKinley, as has been confirmed by the DOI (which is cited as a source for the current incorrect name, even though it’s apparently irrelevant as the official name has ostensibly *no* bearing on the “common” name) along with every other major news outlet, mapping service, etc.

And the only reason we’re waiting is because of an arbitrary moratorium, which doesn’t even apply as clearly common usage has changed since the RM was closed.

There is no logical way to argue this article should still be called Denali. 2601:840:8080:6850:90A5:8516:414F:DDFF (talk) 23:20, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Prove that "common usage has changed since the RM was closed", using reliable sources of course. HiLo48 (talk) 00:06, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, contra to that:

"One of the most majestic sights in Denali National Park and Preserve is its namesake 20,310-foot mountain." https://theweek.com/culture-life/travel/guide-denali-national-park

"Denali, America's tallest mountain, could face a summer with a rescue team of just four after Trump hiring freeze." https://www.advnture.com/news/climbers-attempting-to-summit-americas-tallest-mountain-in-potential-peril-over-threatened-mountain-rescue-cuts

At the very least we need more time to determine non-naming related stories to assess common usage. Calwatch (talk) 01:50, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Asking for non-naming related usage stories is moving the goalposts. What greater indicator that the common name has changed than reliable sources announcing their intent to use Mt. McKinley? Common usage does not mean universal usage among all reliable sources. There is already no need for more time, saying there is a need does not a need create. Every relevant mapping organization has changed the name, every government agency, all major news agencies. This is partisan grasping at straws and is violating neutral point of view. 2601:840:8080:6850:90A5:8516:414F:DDFF (talk) 03:42, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

The greater indicator that the name has changed would be people using the new name. That's not to say stories about the name change aren't meaningful, but the only way to assess whether a name is common is to observe it in actual use. 33tevC (talk) 10:11, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

This guideline was not adhered to when the article was moved initially. Reliable sources began using Denali because the DOI changed the name. The article was moved relatively immediately. This has happened once again. The article is not being moved. This is partisan. I challenge anyone to find a similar naming dispute where reliable sources are so one sided yet use of the incorrect name as the article title continues. 174.225.246.172 (talk) 16:08, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

I agree that the original move was done in questionable practice, but repeating that again does not right that wrong. As Calwatch notes below, even official name changes do not necessarily result in immediate moves. ArkHyena (it/its) 19:42, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

This is a good precedent to use to change it. 2603:8000:3F01:9133:E175:C096:F82F:85DF (talk) 06:27, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

There are many more reliable sources out there than Google Maps, so until a major shift in name usage among MANY reliable sources occurs, I see no reason to change anything.

Also, the size of a source’s user base has no bearing on its reliability. For example, Google Maps doesn’t suddenly become more reliable than, say, Al Jazeera, just because it has millions of users. 296cherry (talk) 03:29, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Google Maps, Apple Maps, USGS, NPS, DoI, the AP, CNN, NYT. What reliable sources are using the incorrect, uncommon, unofficial name that you would like to look to? This is purely partisan and denigrating the quality of the encyclopedia. 174.225.246.172 (talk) 16:10, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Calwatch listed some sources still using Denali. But anyway, this discussion is going no where. If you are so certain that the name shift will occur among reliable sources, why not just wait the three months to rehash this argument? Surely by then it will be clear which name is more common. 296cherry (talk) 17:23, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

It should be noted it took two years for Barrow to be moved to Utqiagvik, Alaska. There is precedence for not accepting government changes immediately. This has nothing to do with politics. Calwatch (talk) 22:34, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

And most people on the streets still call it Barrow because it's much easier to say. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:17, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Just like most people in Alaska are still using Denali, like they did even when it was officially named Mt. McKinley. This is why we need the three months to assess the WP:COMMONNAME standard. Calwatch (talk) 22:02, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

al jazeera is state-ran media owned by the government of qatar. are you seriously comparing google maps to state media of a country that harbors and aids designated terrorist groups? Downzyisaliar (talk) 23:56, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

I was just using them as an example. Also, according to WP:ALJAZEERA, they are a reliable source for topics outside of the Palestinian conflict, so your personal opinion of them is irrelevant. 296cherry (talk) 19:31, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

I have no idea how it is possible Al Jazeera is a reliable source for anything. It's one of the head-scratchers of Wikipedia and I would rate Google Maps far far more reliable. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:50, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Considering the US President is directly involved in the Palestinian conflict and totally backing Israel, this is clearly politically motivated opposition in order to delegitimize the administration. The editorial whims of foreign propaganda mouthpieces do not dictate the name of the mountain, and nor should it dictate the name of its corresponding encyclopedia article. Especially when most reliable sources reflect the name reversion, as enacted by the democratically elected President who has jurisdiction of the land the mountain is on. If the logic of current naming is to be followed consistently, every national park with a local indigenous name must also be renamed, and the Willis Tower should revert to the Sears Tower. 2601:840:8080:6850:6DAD:7E0E:6C42:BB12 (talk) 01:00, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH and WP:NOTAFORUM 296cherry (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

No bad faith is assumed here; point to that assumption. Perhaps the assumption on your part that I am not assuming good faith is itself a bad faith assumption. 2601:840:8080:6850:2C73:D3AA:B8B4:53D6 (talk) 23:13, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

“… this is clearly politically motivated opposition in order to delegitimize the administration.” 296cherry (talk) 03:11, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

Re: "every national park with a local indigenous name must also be renamed"

This is a false equivalency. What distinguishes Denali/McKinley from other NPs and features that have indigenous names is that "Denali" had official status from 2015–2025, and it still is the official name of the national park it is located within. This is not the case for e.g. "Tahoma", a name derived from indigenous toponyms for Mt. Rainier and commonly used locally. As far as I can tell, "Tahoma" never had official status for either the mountain or its respective NP.

Now, for the record, I believe that "McKinley" is now well-established enough as the common name; however, other editors disagree on the basis of more stringent WP:COMMONNAME standards. That is fine. Do not, however, accuse editors of bad faith without basis; "I don't agree with them" is not a reason to do so. ArkHyena (it/its) 19:57, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

"What distinguishes Denali/McKinley from other NPs and features that have indigenous names is that "Denali" had official status from 2015–2025, and it still is the official name of the national park it is located within."

What also distinguishes it is that other NPs did not have a competing Offical State Name and are not subject of a long-running naming dispute. The mountain is officially called Denali by the State of Alaska, and sits inside Denali National Park and Denali State Park. So it has two official, recognised names at differing levels of government. It is further named Denali by locals, and the only reason the U.S. Board on Geographic Names had not considered the matter earlier was that a solitary Ohio Congressman was obstructing the system by introducing wordage into unrelated pending bills that procedurally blocked the USBGN.

"Under U.S. Board on Geographic Names policy, the Board cannot consider any name-change proposal if congressional legislation relating to that name is pending. Thus, Regula began a biennial legislative tradition of either introducing language into Interior Department appropriation bills, or introducing a stand-alone bill that directed that the name of Mount McKinley should not be changed. This effectively killed the Denali name-change proposal pending with the Board."

So it was a very easy decision when the dispute was resolved to align WP with what everyone agreed was the name. It wasn't slavishly following the federal designation - it was respecting the resolution of a 40-year dispute.

We are now asked to pick sides in a reopened dispute. Given all the road signs and locals call it Denali, and given that US Reps from Alaska have opposed the Federal change, it seems premature to flip-flop on the whims of the President (which will likely be reverted in 5 years, albeit WP:CRYSTALBALL).

It's not an act of resistance to say "Well here's what everyone local calls it, and that's probably more COMMONNAME than what some culture warriors 3000 miles away in DC call it".

Basically all media coverage to date has been about the name change, which is not organic usage. What will count for COMMONNAME is if the next editions of Lonely Planet, etc change their usage. Hemmers (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Local Alaskans have many different names for the mountain... not just Denali. Per the article, Denali is probably a minority term by the indigenous populations. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

In saying "most reliable sources", are you considering that Wikipedia is a global project and have therefore checked a lot of sources outside the USA? HiLo48 (talk)

"Mt mc" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Mt mc has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 March 7 § Mt mc until a consensus is reached. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:12, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Name

Why was Mount McKinley so quick to change to Denali on this site when Obama changed it, but when Trump does the same type of thing, which is completely legal, everyone is suddenly against it? This needs to be changed ASAP. AnotherWeatherEditor (talk) 14:19, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is dominated by liberals. They also changed Clingman's Dome's and Mount Evans' name immediately. It's part of the campaign to annihilate America's European heritage. It's only a question of time until liberals rename Mount Mitchell, Mt Whitney, Mt Rainier and any other European-sounding mountain and national park. Glasfaser Wien (talk) 11:28, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

Glasfaser Wien - Please read Wikipedia:Assume good faith. HiLo48 (talk) 07:55, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia being dominated by liberals is merely a truth fact. And many people here argued against the move to Mt McKinley because "the fascist Trump did it". And it's also true that those who favor Denali rather than Mt McKinley would also favor ancient Indian names we never learned at school for above-mentioned mountains. Yes, WP has been doomed since liberals rule it, i.e. possibly since its creation, as it claims climate change is manmade and other untruths. Glasfaser Wien (talk) 08:13, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Fun fact: The more right wing of the two major political parties in Australia is Liberal Party of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 08:55, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

In the U.S. "liberal" is what elsewhere is referred to as leftist/left-wing, with "radical liberal" meaning far-left, while "conservative" is what is rightist/right-wing. Of course leftists are anything but libertarian. Glasfaser Wien (talk) 12:18, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

U.S. =/= the world. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:36, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Well, the idea of a free encyclopedia that interested people can contribute to if they like is a rather liberal idea, even socialist if you will. So it might attract people who like that idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:36, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

This is absolutely untrue since when an editor unilaterally changed Barrow to Utqiagvik, Alaska it was reverted once discovered and it took two years for it to be changed to its official name, and months after every state government entity referred to it that way. Calwatch (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, that's been an exception. Exceptions confirm the rule. And I'm talking about mountains. The new name for Barrow should have been implemented by WP as well btw because that was made the official name, whether you like it or not. I refer to the city as Barrow myself, but its official name is the impronouncable one so it would have been correct for WP if it changed its name sooner. Same should be done to Mount McKinley now that it's the official name. But WP editors are hesitating because the re-rename was made by Trump and because it sounds European. Glasfaser Wien (talk) 17:46, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Here the state is clearly continuing to primarily refer to it as Denali, as they had before the official federal government change. There are old web pages which refer to Mt. McKinley, but just as many from that generation (pre-2012) which refer to it solely as Denali. The federal government made the change, which is fine, but not controlling. Non-change stories about the mountain haven't really popped up. All I have to ask is, what is the rush to making a change? Why not wait for the dust to settle? Calwatch (talk) 23:34, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Because both Denali and Mt McKinley are equally common names for the mountain, so we should pick the official one. Glasfaser Wien (talk) 08:11, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Denali/Mount McKinley

Honestly, I think we need to use both names in the title. It’s clear that there is no consensus on whether to drop "Denali" as the article’s title. Using both names (which are official at separate levels of government) as a compromise is the best solution. It appeases both sides, and both names for the mountain are in common use. GN22 (talk) 19:13, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Somewhere in the archives this sort of Solomon solution was discussed and it doesn't work. Calwatch (talk) 23:35, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Right, it was proposed by me. But I have no idea why it "wouldn't work". Aoraki / Mount Cook works fine. Except that "Aoraki / Mount Cook" is the official name, while this mountain's official name is "Mount McKinley". Glasfaser Wien (talk) 08:11, 13 March 2025 (UTC)